Was going to write a little section on why there is suffering after yesterdays BS, but then realized I was seriously underqualified for it :P
Anyway, going to throw some ideas that have been bouncing around in my head to (hopefully) facilitate discussion. Just hope there are no hereseys in here...
-The statement "God is a loving all powerful God that allows suffering" is not illogical or self-refuting.
-All powerful = There is nothing God can't do =/= There is nothing God won't do
-God won't be untrue to his own character (loving, just, faithful)
-In love, God creates us with free will
-In justice, he brings about the consequences of sin i.e. suffering
-Only God is good, all of us have fallen short and so we can not say we do not deserve punishment, nor can we claim how much punishment we deserve.
-But bringing it back to God's sovereignty, He can use even this to create in us a more Christlike character. Examples include but are not limited to pretty much every character in the bible :P
-On the subject of people who never hear about Jesus or unborn babies, I think the bible says very little because it does not help it do what it is supposed to do, which is bring the good news to those who HAVE heard about Jesus. All it really says is that we should have faith that God judges justly on the last day and then turns our attention back to what we who have heard should do.
Yeah, I think that's pretty much it from me.
Sherman
9 comments:
I feel like my opinion is different to most of yours, but I disagree with the "free will" statement. I know this borders on Calvinist, but hear me out.
We are human. We can't "will" to do something that is outside our nature. We can't decide to be a dog or to learn how to fly. In the same way, we cannot choose to live. God, in His mercy chooses us. He sends His Holy Spirit to work in us and change us. He reaches out to us.
And it's the same with God. God can't do anything that's outside His nature. He can't be evil or break promises or sin.
However, God has given us free choice. We can choose what to eat for lunch or what to wear to work, or whether to obey our parents, or what career to choose. We have free CHOICE, but not free will.
Go read Ephesians 2, kids.
And then I totally thought I responded to the all powerful thing.
Leading on from my last comment, there are totally things God can't do. Like I said, He can't sin. God won't and CAN'T be untrue to His own character.
After Adam and Eve disobey Him, He promises us that we will surely die. The wages of sin is death. The consequence of our sin SHOULD be eternal damnation, but instead we get eternal LIFE just by believing in Jesus. Talk about a sweet deal. However, we still live in a broken world. And along with that, like Sherman said, is suffering. We suffer for a short time while we're here on earth instead of spending eternity in hell. I'm okay with it.
Everything else Sherman said I pretty much agree with.
Go ahead and flame me.
No one has anything to contribute? Disappointing..
yes.
that absolutely contributes to this discussion.
Clearly I have to disagree with everything Dot had to say. Exccept for the bit about whether God can't or God won't.
Oh, and the bit about free will being better explained as free choice.
But besides that, I disagree with everything she said >.<
Tho seriously, I like ur definition of free choice better than my use of free will. I guess the main difference between Calvenists and Armenians is that Calvenists see salvation as something that is willed while Armenians see salvation as something that is chosen.
I dunno if I fully agree with the can't/won't issue tho, even if I think we might just be arguing semantics and the effective results are the same (i.e. What God does is still the same). I still feel that God can do all things in the sense that he has the potential to do all things if he so chose. But He would never choose to do certain things because they are contradictory to other things He chose to be. For example, I could choose to be the worlds fattest man which automatically disqualifies me for being the worlds skinniest man but I still have the potential for it.
Yeah my opinions swing a bit with the can't/won't issue. The more I read, the more I'm convinced God cannot betray His own nature, otherwise why wouldn't He save His Son the pain and torment of taking the sins of 203948098123 people and dying on the cross? I mean, sure, that would mean that He'd be breaking this one little promise, but it works out better, right? Definitely the epitome of the win/win situation.
But He didn't, and I'm convinced it's because God CANNOT break a promise.. because it runs completely contrary to His entire nature.
I just wrote this massive thing about predestination but I think I'll leave it for another time when I can phrase it in a way that makes sense.
phrasing predestination so that it actually makes sense?! Now THAT's impossible :P
Getting away from predestination-
Sherman wrote;
'In justice, he bring about the consequences of sin'-
Are we to take this as meaning every time there is suffering, we are seeing 'justice' (consequence of sin) being done?
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